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josh_1999(Newbie)Newbie
8 Jan 2024

Hi,


How are "Accumulating ETF's" taxed if it pays no dividends? It can have income inside of the etf, but these are never distributed to the person who owns shares in the ETF. Furthermore, if we have to pay tax on the dividends that are inside of the Accumulating ETF, what happens to LIC's or Individual Companies that don't pass on dividends to the people who own shares in their companies?


Just for context, an "Accumulating" ETF, are ETF's which do not pay dividends to the holder of the etf, an example is the below:

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Instead of Dividends, the etf will buy more shares in the underlying index - however, it is still important to note that no dividends are actually paid to the person holding the ETF - so it isn't the same as a dividend reinvestment plan in Australia.


If we have to pay tax on the income the accumulating etf have, what does that mean for other companies that don't actually pay a dividend?


Two examples in my mind are:

  • Tesla "TSLA": This Share does not pay a dividend, but is cash flow positive, so it reinvests its cashflow into itself
  • Bershire Hathaway B shares "BKR.B": This share kind of acts like an etf or LIC in a way, where it invests in companies, but, it doesn't give any dividends to people who hold shares - it instead reinvests them.


Please let me know your thoughts.


Cheers,

Josh

4,372 views
15 replies
4,372 views
15 replies

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Most helpful reply

Bruce4Tax(Taxicorn)Taxicorn
8 Jan 2024

If there are no dividends or distributions paid to investors, and not DRP, then there is no taxable income to be declared by investors.


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Most helpful reply

Bruce4Tax(Taxicorn)Taxicorn
8 Jan 2024

If there are no dividends or distributions paid to investors, and not DRP, then there is no taxable income to be declared by investors.


Max3000(Newbie)Newbie
19 Jan 2024

Hi Bruce,


I wanted some clarification. I genuinely believed you were an ATO agent when I first saw your answer. I've spoken with numerous knowledgeable people on different forums who disagree with you on this and I can't find anything official from the ATO's website about this special point. In some European countries, accumulating ETFs don't trigger a tax event until the sale is realized (only taxed on capital gains). However, I've been discouraged by other Australian investors to invest on accumulating ETFs overseas, as it will be a tax report nightmare to declare distributions in Australia.


Since you're a registered tax professional, could you clarify your point and tell me on what do you base your assumption? Is there anything official from the ATO to back this up? Have you already treated accumulating ETFs (for yourself or your clients) and didn't declare any distributions (reinvested by the fund itself, not DRP) in taxable income without any issue with ATO?


Thank you @Bruce4Tax, I'd appreciate your help.

Bruce4Tax(Taxicorn)Taxicorn
19 Jan 2024

If any trust earns taxable income, but does not distribute that income to beneficiaries/unit holders, then any tax is payable by the trust itself - not beneficiaries/unit holders.


An ETF is a form of trust.


Look under taxation information on the trust manager's web site.


Have you already treated accumulating ETFs (for yourself or your clients) and didn't declare any distributions (reinvested by the fund itself, not DRP) in taxable income without any issue with ATO?


Accumulating trusts - Yes, regularly.


what happens to LIC's or Individual Companies that don't pass on dividends to the people who own shares in their companies?


LICs are companies, but with certain tax concessions.


LICs and companies do not pass on dividends the way most ETFs do - the dividends paid by companies are declared from the company's own income e.g. a company can pay dividends even though its only income is interest.






Max3000(Newbie)Newbie
19 Jan 2024

@Bruce4Tax

Thank you very much for your detailed answer. Being a new resident, it's so confusing to know what's the actual proper rule concerning this type of ETFs, and there's no consensus on how they are treated here.


I'm just thinking I'd share with you a place we've debated this point (Whirlpool forum on finance/investing tab). I hope you understand it's just for the sake of clarity. Thank you Bruce.


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Max3000(Newbie)Newbie
20 Jan 2024

@Bruce4Tax

Thanks Bruce.


Just to make sure, you confirm this for UCITS accumulating ETFs funds (like Vanguard, Blackrock, Invesco, Amundi...) based overseas (Ireland, Luxembourg, France...) replicating any type of indexes? I'm not talking about their counterparts domiciled here in Australia, meaning, they do pay taxes in these countries, but not in Australia.


So the place they operate isn't an issue? As long as there are no direct distributions paid to investors (no DRP), no need to declare them as taxable income until the sale of the shares?


Cheers.

Bruce4Tax(Taxicorn)Taxicorn
21 Jan 2024

@Max3000

Any other answer defies logic, and the concept of a trust.


If you are not sure, then you should ask the fund manager.


In any case, if you are an AUS tax resident then you are taxed here according to AUS tax law - including foreign income.


Whether tax can apply in other countries is beyond the scope of this forum.


Peter999(Initiate)Initiate
8 Feb 2024

@Bruce4Tax,


Some European countries have two sets of their ETFs - an accumulation fund version and a distributing fund version.


As per the name, accumulation funds automatically reinvest the distributions, and distributing funds distribute it (pay it out).


The accumulation fund exists for tax-advantaged accounts like retirement accounts in countries where those retirement accounts are untaxed.


And as the name ETF implies, units in these funds are traded on the public stock exchange. The fund manager does not find the complex tax rules of every holder of their ETFs as it is literally dozens of different countries around the world. It is left up to the shareholder to comply with their own tax obligations.


A common example of users of this type of fund is in the UK. However, even many people in the UK are unaware that if they hold an accumulation fund outside their zero-tax environment, they are still required to pay tax, which requires digging through the fund manager's reports to find how much was automatically reinvested so they can add it to their tax return.



So, just to clarify:


When you say


>If there are no dividends or distributions paid to investors, and not DRP, then there is no taxable income to be declared by investors.


It works the same as DRP, however it is reinvested internally, even though it is still a trust structure. Remember, this is not Australia and not every country works exactly the same as Australian funds.


And when you say


>If any trust earns taxable income, but does not distribute that income to beneficiaries/unit holders, then any tax is payable by the trust itself - not beneficiaries/unit holders.


How sure are you that foreign trusts investigate and obey the tax laws of dozens of countries around the world of those who invest in their ETFs, as opposed to Australian ETFs?


Have you ever dealt with any Australian residents for tax purposes that hold ETFs such as these (e.g., VWRP) to have the confidence to say that the trust pays tax for those who purchase their ETFs when they reside in any one of dozens of other countries?


I believe there is a high likelihood your assumptions are incorrect, which could lead the person asking the question and anyone else who reads your comments to think they don't need to pay tax on distributions in the year they are reinvested internally in UCITS ETFs, which opens them up to fines by the ATO if they are audited.


So I ask you again – have you ever dealt with any Australian residents for tax purposes that hold ETFs such as these (e.g., VWRP) to have the confidence to say that the trust pays tax for those who purchase their ETFs?

Bruce4Tax(Taxicorn)Taxicorn
8 Feb 2024

@Peter999

As per the name, accumulation funds automatically reinvest the distributions, and distributing funds distribute it (pay it out).


Distributions that are reinvested are still taxable as distributions.


A true accum fund would not make distributions at all.



How sure are you that foreign trusts investigate and obey the tax laws of dozens of countries around the world of those who invest in their ETFs, as opposed to Australian ETFs?


Not relevant - if no distributions, then there is no income.



dhibro(Newbie)Newbie
24 Mar 2024

@Bruce4Tax

Sorry I’m also in the same situation and still confused 😕- doesn’t ASX have the concept of accumulating ETFs that reinvest dividends automatically? I honestly believe the easiest for AU tax residents is to just make the switch to only invest ETFs domiciled in AU. I was also told there is the issue of foreign currency being held in those foreign ETFs, which are subject to FX fees, making tax returns in AU a nightmare. I currently hold VWRA (USD) but seriously considering making the switch to VGS

fusion(Newbie)Newbie
19 June 2024

Respectfully, I believe that some of the responses provided by @Bruce4Tax in this thread are incorrect or at least over-simplified. For example:


"If any trust earns taxable income, but does not distribute that income to beneficiaries/unit holders, then any tax is payable by the trust itself - not beneficiaries/unit holders."


This seems incorrect. Under Australian tax law, I believe that beneficiaries/unitholders are generally taxed on their proportionate share of income received by the trustee, regardless of whether the trustee actually distributes that income - see Division 6 of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1936 (especially Section 97).



"An ETF is a form of trust."


This might be true for ETFs established in Australia, but not necessarily for all ETFs established overseas.



To help others grappling with overseas accumulating ETFs, I thought I'd share some information that might be helpful. Please note that I'm not an accountant, tax lawyer or tax expert, so the below is simply my understanding and might not be accurate (and is not advice and should not be relied upon).


1. In the 2000s, Australia had a special tax regime applicable to "Foreign Investment Funds" (FIFs). This regime imposed "accruals taxation" on income and gains accumulating in foreign companies that were not controlled by Australians and foreign trusts, which had a punitive effect on investors in those FIFs (requiring annual payment of tax based on accumulated growth of the FIF, regardless of any distributions to FIF beneficiaries or any disposal of FIF interests by FIF beneficiaries). Fortunately, this FIF regime was repealed in 2010-11. See more information here: https://www.ato.gov.au/forms-and-instructions/foreign-income-return-form-guide/chapter-4-taxation-of-foreign-investment-fund-fif-interests ("Chapter 4 Taxation of foreign investment fund (FIF) interests")


2. According to the ATO's website referenced above ("Chapter 4 Taxation of foreign investment fund (FIF) interests"):


"If you have an interest in a FIF, you will be subject to the tax rules applicable to your circumstances; for example, if you have an interest in a foreign trust, you will be subject to the general tax rules relating to trust income (Division 6 of Part III) and may be subject to the transferor trust provisions (Division 6AAA of Part III). [...]


If you have an interest in a foreign company to which the CFC measures do not apply, you will be subject to the general tax rules relating to dividend income and shares."


3. On this basis, it's clear that if you invest in a foreign company (that is not a Controlled Foreign Company), such as Berkshire Hathaway, then you will only be taxed on any distributions made to you by the company and any CGT events in relation to your shareholding (e.g., if you sell shares), and you will not be taxed on any income received by the company itself. Conversely, if you invest in a foreign trust, then you will generally be taxed on your proportionate share of income received by the trustee (see Section 95AAA of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1936 for an overview of how tax on trust income works), as well as on any CGT events in relation to your interest in the trust (e.g., if you sell units in the trust).


4. A key question, therefore, is whether the accumulating ETFs which are the subject of this thread constitute foreign companies or foreign trusts for Australian tax purposes. On this question, the ATO made a ruling on a particular Ireland-domiciled UCITS Fund back in 2018: https://www.ato.gov.au/law/view/view.htm?docid=PRR/PR20181/NAT/ATO/00001&PiT=99991231235958 (PR 2018/1 "Income tax: tax consequences of investing in the HSBC UCITS Common Contractual Fund"). This ruling is only binding for the particular fund in question (the HSBC UCITS CCF), but it contains helpful analysis, cites relevant case law, and gives an insight into the ATO's thinking. In that ruling, the ATO determined that the UCITS Fund was a trust for Australian tax purposes and therefore Fund unitholders were subject to tax each year on the proportionate share of the Fund's net income to which they are presently entitled, and they become "presently entitled" to the proportionate share of the Fund's net income after the Fund manager has calculated the amount of fees/expenses that need to be paid out of the Fund's gross income for that year (which would presumably occur at least annually and therefore would require unitholders to pay tax annually).


5. In the HSBC UCITS CCF ruling, the ATO seemed to placed significant emphasis on the following provisions of the Fund's Deed of Constitution:


Each Unit represents an undivided co-ownership interest of a Unitholder with the other Unitholders in the Assets of the Fund. Units in the CCF are not shares but serve to determine the proportion of the underlying Assets of the CCF to which each Unitholder is beneficially entitled.


Unitholders are absolutely entitled to the income of the Funds as it arises whether or not a Gross Income Payment is made. No Unit shall confer any specific interest or share in any particular part of the Assets of the Fund.


These provisions seem to largely replicate the effect of a trust under Australian law, and (seemingly) made it easy for the ATO to conclude that the Fund was a trust for Australian tax purposes.


6. It's unclear whether the same analysis and outcome would apply to accumulating ETFs such as the "iShares Core MSCI World UCITS ETF" (SWDA) and the "iShares Core S&P 500 UCITS ETF" (CSPX). I looked closely at CSPX (the prospectus is available on the Blackrock iShares website, and the underlying Constitution is available on the Ireland Companies Registration Office website for €2.50). There are some key distinguishing features between CSPX and the HSBC UCITS CCF:


- CSPX is backed by a segregated Fund maintained by a company named iShares VII plc (incorporated in Ireland), whereas the HSBC UCITS CCF was a collective investment vehicle that was not a company and instead was constituted under contract law and relevant Irish legislation by means of a Deed of Constitution


- iShares VII plc issues shares to CSPX investors, whereas the HSBC UCITS CCF issued units to investors


- nothing in the constitution of iShares VII plc or the Prospectus of CSPX indicates that shareholders have any vested interest in the income received by iShares VII plc (or the segregated Fund maintained by iShares VII plc), whereas the HSBC UCITS CCF Deed of Constitution contained the wording outlined above.


With these distinctions in mind, I think there's a reasonable argument that investing in CSPX is akin to investing in a foreign company and not a foreign trust (and therefore you would only be taxed on any distributions actually paid out to you by CSPX (which are expected to be zero), and on any CGT events relating to your shares), but it's not 100% free from doubt.


7. Until the ATO provides further clarity or the Australian tax legislation is updated: if you want to invest in foreign accumulating ETFs, you probably need to ask a tax expert to review the ETF prospectus and the underlying constitutional documents and form a view as to whether the ETF is more akin to a foreign company or a foreign trust. This might depend on a number of factors and is unlikely to be 100% clear in any case.

Bruce4Tax(Taxicorn)Taxicorn
20 June 2024

"If any trust earns taxable income, but does not distribute that income to beneficiaries/unit holders, then any tax is payable by the trust itself - not beneficiaries/unit holders."


This seems incorrect. Under Australian tax law, I believe that beneficiaries/unitholders are generally taxed on their proportionate share of income received by the trustee, regardless of whether the trustee actually distributes that income - see Division 6 of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1936 (especially Section 97).


Yes - if the trustee passes a minute of distribution, or is compelled to distribute by trust deed e.g. UT. The income is "distributed" whether paid or not.


If the trustee has discretion to distribute, and does not exercise that discretion, or there is no beneficiary presently entitled (e.g deceased estate) the the income is taxed at trust rates within the trust.


See Form T instructions.






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How are Accumulating ETFs, or, Overseas Companies that pay no Dividends Treated in Australia? | ATO Community